a, an, the

Dzisiaj zabrałem się za rozwiązywanie zadań z gramtyki na tej stronie. Mam kilka (jak zwykle ;) wątpliwości.

1. 'Where are you? I'm on the bus.' - czy w tym zdaniu nie można używać 'a bus'? Osoba, która to relacjonuje na pewno wie, w jakim autobusie jest, dlatego więc poprawna odpowiedź to 'the'. Jednak osoba, która jej relacji słucha może nie mieć pojęcia w którym z autobusów akurat siedzi podróżny. Wydaje mi się, że wtedy odpowiednie byłoby 'a'. 'Gdzie jesteś? Siedzię w jakimś tam autobusie'.

2. 'Do you know a Smith?' - czy przed imionami używa się przedimków?

3. 'Poeple in Europe likes comfort in their lives.' - nie powinno być 'Poeple in Europe like comfort in their lives.' ;)?

4. Mam małe problemy z umieszczaniem przedimków przed nazwami ulic, jakichś zabytków, lotnisk, barów (itp.)... Raz pisze się np. 'Polish TV is placed at Woronicza Street.' (czyli bez przedimka przed nazwą ulicy), a raz 'I bought this dress on the High Street.'. Czy byłby ktoś chętny i wytłumaczył mi to :)?

Jezeli osoba odpowiedzialaby I'm on a bus. - mogloby to by byc poprawne, ale oznaczaloby, ze podrozny nie wie, w jakim autobusie sie znajduje, co latwo mozna wytlumaczyc stanem zamroczenia;)

A Smith - jakis pan Smith., znaczy nie znamy go. To tak jak : Jakis Kowalski w POlskim. Ale zalezy od kontekstu.


No w tym trzecim to masz racje, people like/a poeple likes.

Generalnie przed nazwami ulic the sie nie daje. The High Street - wyjatek.

POzdrawiam,
Kociamama.

Zaryzykuje calkowita ruina mojej wiarygodnosci ;), ale nie zgodze sie tu z Kociąmamą. IMO "I'm ona a bus." jako odp. na pytanie bedzie poprawne w wiekszosci wypadkow. Dopoki autobus nie zostanie jakos okreslony, zawsze jest tylko "jakims autobusem". "I'm on the bus." sugeruje, ze osoba sluchajaca spodziewa sie tam go zastac.

Take heart, Sobar :-)

http://www.mediacorpradio.com/newsradio/sgem/issue3(aug27).htm

1. always put yourself in the place of the speaker - he decides which article to use.
2. autor of question doesn't know this Mr Smith - that's why there's a before the name; note there can be also 'a Picasso' meaning a painting, or sth like in the sentence: she paints good, but she'll never be a Picasso.
3. true, true
4. streets don't take the, but there are exeptions ( ;) ): the High Street (in English cities it is usually the main street), the Strand, the Mall; the you put the before motoways, and names without preceding adjective (Holly Drive, The Drive)

A: Where are you?
B: I am on the bus. I cannot talk now.

A: Where are you?
B: I am on a stinking crowded bus. I cannot talk now.

A: Where are you?
B: I am on the stinking crowded bus. I should have taken the train, as you told me. Anyway, I cannot talk now.

A gdzie tu logika i konsekwencja?

"I am on the bus.", ale "I am on a stinking crowded bus."??

Z trzecim sie zgadzam, z drugim tez, pierwszego nie pojmuje.

1. - I find this rule doubtful. An example off the top of my head:

Suppose, I made a fruit juice at home. I had only one orange, one banana and two apples -- a red one and a green one. An I have only one juicer :) The next day a friend asks me: "How did you make that great juice yesterday at the party? -- I wish I had gone to the kitchen with you!". And suppose I answer: "I took the banana, the orange and the green apple and just mixed them togheter in the juicer."

That doesn't sound right, does it? IMO we have to put ourselves in the place of the speaker, but the speaker's choice of articles should come from the relationship between the listener and the objects of the utterance: how much the listener knows of them, what he or she is expecting.

If the listener expects the speaker to be on a particular bus (e.g. it's morning and the listener knows that the speaker always takes a bus to work), then "on the bus" is the right choice. If it is rather unexpected for the listener to find that the speaker's going by bus somewhere while the conversation is taking place (this is going to be a bit complicated: the speaker knows that the listener thinks that the speaker should be at home, watching Słabysz on TV), then "I'm on a bus" is the right phrasing for me.
Does that make sense?
Anyway, any sentence explaining the use of articles should start with "the speaker knows/supposes/expects that the listener knows (or doesn't know).."

Exactly -- nothing to add. You'll also notice I intimated this way of understanding the problem in an earlier posting, but you expounded the issue consummately!... I hope ;)

Dzięki :). Trochę zamieszania z tymi przedimkami. Często można się w testach kłocić co do tego, jaki powinien być umieszczony (choć najczęściej trzeba to wywnioskować z kontekstu).

W testach i ćwiczeniach zwykle jest za mało kontekstu - stąd można sobie interpretować do woli, co zresztą jest korzystne dla tzw. procesu dydaktycznego

>Does that make sense?
No, it doesn't work that way.

>If the listener expects the speaker to be on a particular bus (e.g.
>it's morning and the listener knows that the speaker always takes a
>bus to work), then "on the bus" is the right choice.

No. The listener doesn't have to know or expect that.
Even if A knows that B drives to work and B knows that A knows that, B's answer should be "I am on the bus." in
A: Where are you?
B: I am on the bus. I cannot talk now.

Some people drive to work, some take THE bus. (Not: Some people drive to work, some take A bus.) I was on the bus because I took the bus. I took the bus means I went by bus.
A bus is a type of four-wheeled vehicle or a bus line.

If it is rather
>unexpected for the listener to find that the speaker's going by bus
>somewhere while the conversation is taking place (this is going to be
>a bit complicated: the speaker knows that the listener thinks that the
>speaker should be at home, watching Słabysz on TV), then "I'm on a
>bus" is the right phrasing for me.

No.
I am on the bus, or for example, I am on a bus heading for...would be the right answer.

A: Where are you?
B: I am on a stinking crowded bus. I cannot talk now.
B describes the four-wheeled vehicle.


A: Where are you?
B: I am on the stinking crowded bus. I should have taken the train, as you told me. Anyway, I cannot talk now.
Before B set off for the trip, he had a conversation with A. A wanted B to take the train, not the bus, but B thought the #31/10:30 bus would be more convenient. A knew the (#31/10:30) bus would be crowded and warned B not to take it, but B wouldn't listen.

>No. The listener doesn't have to know or expect that.
>Even if A knows that B drives to work and B knows that A knows that,
>B's answer should be "I am on the bus." in
>A: Where are you?
>B: I am on the bus. I cannot talk now.

No. "I'm on the bus" is heard more frequently but it is not the only way of expressing this.

>Some people drive to work, some take THE bus. (Not: Some people drive
>to work, some take A bus.) I was on the bus because I took the bus. I
>took the bus means I went by bus.

Not always. Query the Google for "Do you take * bus". Again "the" is much more frequent, but you can also use "a".

>for example, I am on a bus heading for...would be the right answer.

That's right.

>No. "I'm on the bus" is heard more frequently but it is not the only
>way of expressing this.

You don't understand. "I am on the bus" is not equivalent to "I am on a bus."

>>for example, I am on a bus heading for...would be the right
>answer.
>
>That's right.
You don't say.

>Not always. Query the Google for "Do you take * bus". Again "the" is
>much more frequent, but you can also use "a".
"I take a bus" doesn't mean "I take the bus", the same way "I like to walk in the park" is not the same as "I like to walk in a park.".

I did and I didn't find anything that would support your views.
Back to the original.
The statement we are looking at is the answer to the question "Where are you now?"

"I am on a bus" in response to "Where are you?" is odd because it is incomplete. "...a bus" calls for an explanation rather than a period. You might say that aborted sentence if you meant "I am on a bus. Don't ask me why /what I am doing here" or in response to "I can't hear you. Where are you now" meaning "what's this noise?"

One catch you will find interesting though:
"Listening to all the endless people saying things like "I am on a bus now.......yes the no21........no, it's a red one....." or "hold on I am just going through a tunnel".
http://www.seadolby.com/mobile_phones/mobilephones.html

Can you come up with other likely questions the person on the other end might ask?

>1. 'Where are you? I'm on the bus.' - czy w tym zdaniu nie można
>używać 'a bus'? Osoba, która to relacjonuje na pewno wie, w jakim
>autobusie jest, dlatego więc poprawna odpowiedź to 'the'. Jednak
>osoba, która jej relacji słucha może nie mieć pojęcia w którym z
>autobusów akurat siedzi podróżny.

It's not that.
Imagine you have just checked in a hotel and the reception desk clerk says,
"Your room number is 409. You can take the elevator over there..."
You look over there and you see 6 elevators. Which one did the receptionist mean?


Wydaje mi się, że wtedy odpowiednie
>byłoby 'a'. 'Gdzie jesteś? Siedzię w jakimś tam autobusie'.
Yes, but you are expexted to continue.

the fact is that both 'on a train' and 'on the train' are ok. it all depends on the context. and in the example with the elevator, it's more than ok to say 'take the elevator'.

forgot to say why. it's because the receptionist can't have a specific elevator on his mind (it's not like he says: 'take elev no 3', or 'take the blue elev'); he uses 'the elevator' as opposed to 'the stairs', the two of which are about the only ways of getting up to the desired floor :)

Again: a spot-on explanation!

I'm really sorry for the unintentional repetition :(

>One catch you will find interesting though:
>"Listening to all the endless people saying things like "I am on a bus
>now.......yes the no21......no, it's a red one....." or "hold on I am
>just going through a tunnel".
>http://www.seadolby.com/mobile_phones/mobilephones.html

Are you suggesting that the speaker used "a bus" just so that more questions could be asked? This sentence might as well be interpreted as a response to "Where are you?". Are you saying that if the reply was "...the bus", no other questions would be asked?
The question "Do you take * bus", which you did not find contributory, asks specifically about the method of transport, doesn't it? My point was to prove that it is possible to use the indefinite article in questions like this.
I have to take back one thing, though. The reply "I'm on a bus" is not 'the right one' (i.e. the only one possible). It is a possibility. I stand corrected.